NatSec ops constrained by a robust constitution implemented by an elected govt, with different co-equal branches, including a court system with centuries of experience & tradition of protecting privacy of citizens from the beginning -- one of the principles on which is was founded (see 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Ammendments for starters), and a vigorous tradition of free speech and free press is one side.
The other is an unelected totalitarian govt with a tradition of actively murdering it's own citizens to consolidate single-party political power, decades (China) or centuries (Russia) of manipulating information to the people, zero free press with active suppression, and active programs in both the civilian and military heirarchy to restrict information and spy on the people.
To even remotely equate these systems and the threat they pose to the people is to either
1) deliberately grossly misrepresent the situation, or
2) display profound ignorance of the issues.
If you want to recognize that there is a vast difference of type and then go on to discuss how the US might be better about what they do, that can be a fine discussion. But the land of 'they're all the same just different degree' is so far from reality as to render discussion useless.
> NatSec ops constrained by a robust constitution implemented by an elected govt, with different co-equal branches, including a court system with centuries of experience & tradition of protecting privacy of citizens from the beginning -- one of the principles on which is was founded (see 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Ammendments for starters), and a vigorous tradition of free speech and free press is one side.
When I think of the FISA court I don’t exactly think of “different co-equal branches, including a court system with centuries of experience & tradition of protecting privacy of citizens from the beginning”. The FISA court is literally a non-adversarial court.
I think the US court system is one of the best designed in the world. But please don’t pretend that the well-developed standard court system is anything like the secret and unaccountable national security court system.
Perhaps you don't think of FISA as a system that protects citizens, but that does not mean it is not so.
You might notice that you're already off in the weeds of international National Security issues and nowhere near the problems of what Russia, China, Iran, etc. are doing. So our system is already fundamentally different.
Then, you might notice that you are completely erroneous about FISA accountability. It is accountable to both higher judges and to Congress -- see the original authorizing act and H.R.2586 in the 113th congress on increasing FISA accountability.
Yes, the FISA courts which deal with national security level secrets are different from open courts, and the accountability has been lax. But if there is any "pretending" here, it is that somehow because FISA courts exist, we're somehow on the same plane as totalitarian and criminal states.
For starters, the FISA courts EXISTS, and does turn down requests. Here, there EXISTS a court system requiring evidence, arguments, and warrants.
It may be imperfect, but there is no such structure whatsoever in Russia, China, Iran etc. -- if they want to spy on someone, foreign or domestic, they just do it.
Again, there's a basis for discussion of how the US, EU, and FVEY countries could do it better.
But there is no basis for discussion with a simplistic and/or propagandistic false equivalence of the open liberal democratic countries and totalitarian regimes.
It is a wholesale difference in kind/type.
NatSec ops constrained by a robust constitution implemented by an elected govt, with different co-equal branches, including a court system with centuries of experience & tradition of protecting privacy of citizens from the beginning -- one of the principles on which is was founded (see 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Ammendments for starters), and a vigorous tradition of free speech and free press is one side.
The other is an unelected totalitarian govt with a tradition of actively murdering it's own citizens to consolidate single-party political power, decades (China) or centuries (Russia) of manipulating information to the people, zero free press with active suppression, and active programs in both the civilian and military heirarchy to restrict information and spy on the people.
To even remotely equate these systems and the threat they pose to the people is to either 1) deliberately grossly misrepresent the situation, or 2) display profound ignorance of the issues.
If you want to recognize that there is a vast difference of type and then go on to discuss how the US might be better about what they do, that can be a fine discussion. But the land of 'they're all the same just different degree' is so far from reality as to render discussion useless.